Trad in the Classroom

Episode 45 – Trad in the Classroom
Teaching and learning social music outside of the pub 
This Irish Music Stories episode aired  September 8, 2020
https://shannonheatonmusic.com/episode-45-trad-in-the-classroom/

– Transcript assistance from Ian Bittle –

Speakers, in order of appearance
>> Shannon Heaton: flute player, singer, composer, teacher, and host of Irish Music Stories 
>> Alasdair White: Fiddle player from the Isle of Lewis in Scotland’s Outer Hebrides who performed with Scotland’s seminal Battlefield Band 
>> Tom Delany: Uilleann piper born and raised in France, where he was steeped in traditional music 
>> June McCormack: Irish flute player and primary school teacher from Ballintogher, Co Sligo who performs with harpist husband with Michael Rooney
>> Michael Rooney: Irish harp player and composer from Co. Monaghan who performs with flute player wife June McCormack
>> Caroline Keane: Limerick born concertina Clare who celebrates her Clare and Sliabh Luachra influences
>> Nigel Heaton: young announcer for Irish Music Stories

______

>> Shannon: Special Irish Music Stories announcement. 

[ Music: “Sabai Sabai,” from Production Music for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]

We have a big U.S. Election coming up (Tuesday November 3rd). Please make sure you’re registered. For many States, the deadline to register is early October. Figure out in advance where you vote, or where you can securely hand deliver your mail-in ballet. You can find all the inform you need at the very accessible vote411.org.

Vote411.org. And vote!

[ Music: “99 High,” from The Blue Dress
Composer: Randal Bays
Artists: Shannon Heaton & Friend ]

 I’m Shannon Heaton. And this Irish Music Stories. The show about traditional music, and the bigger stories behind it. Like how Alasdair White shares the music he learned on the Gaelic speaking Island of Lewis, with people from all over the world:

>> Alasdair: What I’m more doing is  teaching how to play Scottish music on the fiddle, less Scottish fiddling. I think I’m trying to educate people about the music as much as I’m doing anything mechanical. Yeah.

>> Shannon: And how piper Tom Delany taps into his own experience growing up in France when he teaches Irish traditional music on whistle or uilleann pipes:

>> Tom: The more I do it, I love teaching! Because I can relate to the kids or the adults that I’m teaching. I see myself in them, you know, kind of, I want to learn Irish music, but I don’t live in Ireland. And it’s fun because you’re there to provide them with whatever you can. Or what you might not have had.

>> Shannon: There’s no definitive Irish or Scottish music method book. There are traditional music courses at universities, and immersive weekly events, and online courses. I focused on the development of educational resources in my Wax Cylinders to the World Wide Web episode. There’s a lot of material out there.

But many of the people teaching didn’t learn their music in school. They didn’t take online courses. They learned in kitchens from friends and neighbors. They went to dances. They went to pubs. And sometimes they too recording devices, and then spent hours reviewing those field recordings.

But all of these approaches are a bit more organic and maybe less organized. So how do you bring this immersive, social learning approach into a classroom?

[ Music: “Pound the Floor,” from Production Music for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]

For this episode I’ll explore trad teaching with Alasdair White, Tom Delany, Caroline Keane, June McCormack, and Michael Rooney.  I’ll ask them how they teach elements of traditional music style, and culture, and tunes.

There are a lot of tunes. And that’s what learners usually want: tunes. Repertoire.

>> June: Of course, repertoire is really, really important. So good 11, 12 year olds, let’s say, they’re kind of rushing through. And all they want to do is play the tune fast. So they’re not really getting into the tunes, so.

>> Shannon: Flute player June McCormack lives and teaches with her harpist husband Michael Rooney in Sligo. We all met up in Goderich Ontario for the Celtic Roots Festival. And June talked about balancing the pursuit of tunes with being methodical.

>> June: They can learn loads of repertoire. But the focus needs to be on clarity as well. They need to work on performance. Not necessarily performance for the stage, but that they’re getting tunes right. That they’re getting all the breaths in. And all the cuts in the right place. So they’re doing tunes like that. Then they have a bank of skills that can transfer 

[ Music: “Hometown Lullaby,” from Production Music for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]

My own experience as a child, I went to some fantastic teachers. One of my teachers, you know, you got a half a tune every week,  and you had to put in all the cuts in the right place. Half a jig, let’s say. If you didn’t know it when you came back the next week, you didn’t get anything new. And if you came back week after week not knowing the tune, you’d still get the same half tune.

[Michael laughs]

And I think that was really, yeah, that was, that’s reality! And I find even teaching here this week in Goderich, I find mainly adults attending the classes. And I think there’s great value in being methodical and learning things right.

[ Music: “McIntyre’s Fancy,” from Hup Termonfeckin 
Composer: John Brady
Artists: June McCormack, Michael Rooney ]

>> Shannon: June on flute and Michael on harp are dedicated to teaching and performing Irish music with care. Here they’re playing a John Brady Composition, “McIntyrers’ Fancy.” 

>> June: I’m involved myself in a Comhaltas branch in Sligo, that about 200 kids come to class on a Saturday morning.

>> Shannon: Comhaltas  is a world-wide organization, dedicated to preserving and promoting and teaching Irish traditional music. There are branches all over the world. And though teaching styles, of course, vary, there are Comhaltas books of common tunes and has a pretty consistent approach.

>> June: That’s kind of the give-back, I suppose, where you’re working with new people and trying to get them interested in the music. Yeah. 

>> Shannon: So does your day gig inform that at all?

>> Michael: It does, yeah. I mean, I’m a teacher as well, a secondary school teacher. You certainly take teaching methodologies from school. And you just realize what your expectations are for the class, and just the importance of actually preparing for your teaching class. 

[ Music: “Hometown Lullaby” reprise ]

>> Shannon: So, preparing in advance, instead of coming in and saying ‘uuuh, what do I feel like teaching right now.’ You think of what other students are learning, so they can play together. You try to get a balance of key signatures and tune types for people, so they can learn their instruments holistically. And they have a balanced repertoire of tunes they can actually play with other people, instead of a bunch of random or obscure tunes, all in the key of G.

[ Music:  “G Chimes,” from Production Music for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]

>> Michael: Even though they’re all in individual classes for their different instruments, the importance of them when they all come together that they can all play the same repertoire, that would be a big focus within that organization. That all the kids can play the same set of tunes. 

>> June: Mmmm hmm.

>> Shannon: Getting a bunch of students to play the same tunes takes an organized teaching approach. But it also takes lots of work at home.

>> June: So, even if you put the effort in, unless the will is there at home and for the practice time, it’s a complete waste, nearly, you know,  It has to be a lot coming from the parents, I guess. Doesn’t it? Because, you know, even watching our own kids now practicing. Like, you know, it’s just slow and steady. And they need to practice a good bit! 

[  “Little Bird Lullaby,” from Production Music for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]

And they naturally mightn’t. You know, “oh I’d love my child to play an instrument.” But, you know, you have to work very hard at it to become good at it. 

>> Michael: Or even, you know, to go and sit down and do the practice.

>> June: With them. You’ve just said it. Because it can be meaningless practice. It can be putting time in and really not progressing and not really practicing. So, there has to be huge commitment, I think from parents. And you have to carry it. You know, it has to be a long term. You know, the fun of, “Oh, I’d love to play the fiddle” kind of wears out when they have to start practicing and doing their whatever 20 minutes, half hour, every day. Or whatever.

>> Michael: But then there for us as parents can be time consuming. So we have two older lads that are playing. And I need to and June needs to sit down with them and play with them. So it becomes very time consuming for us. It’s like us—it feels like we’re being punished as well. That’s how they feel, so yeah!

[ laughter ]

[ Music: “D Mutey Big Build,” from Production Music for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]

>> Shannon: Okay, so practicing with your kid to make sure there’s effective practice. And to help with  progress. But also, learning how to get out of the way. That’s super important, too.

>> Michael: You know, when you’re dealing with 12 to 18 year olds, especially, if music is their good space during the week, sometimes it’s more the social interaction than the music. I mean, sometimes the music is only the reason for getting them there. So to be aware of that. We tend to keep .. parents separate, you know.

>> Shannon: Haha.  In a locked cage. With food and water.

>> Michael: Yes. But we’re keeping them away so that, you know a lot of times to teenagers their parents are not the coolest. So we just keep them away, and this is their space and they play their music. 

>> June: You have to kind of tutor a parent and say, look, let them relax, let them enjoy their music. Let’s see the big picture here. Do you want them to play music when they’re 22, and they’re going off to college or whatever, and into life?

>> Michael: In the hope that they might become hooked on the music themselves. Because I suppose as a married couple now we’ve seen the benefits of community.

>> June: The community 

>> Michael: And our real true friends and always have been, have been musicians. Because there’s just, there’s a bond there. There’s a link before you even try and get to know someone. I mean, you know, even sitting down in a session, you don’t need to know someone. You just star,t and then the next thing you get into a conversation with someone. And the music just is always there. So we’re hoping, I suppose is that for our own children is that they would get an enjoyment and a good love of traveling life and playing.

[ Music:  “Graf Spey,” from Draiocht
Artists: June Mc Cormack and Michael Rooney ]

>> Shannon: And what about adult learners?

>> June: .. in North America. There certainly are a huge amount of adults. And they’re really, really enjoying the whole scene and their whole lives are revolving around it. I suppose, from talking to a lot of the adults, they just,… adults don’t have to say much time as maybe free time as a child does. So sometimes progress can be slow at times…

>> Michael: There can be a certain anxiety to want to achieve as an adult. I don’t know if that makes sense and that can sometimes trip you up. Whereas children just go with the flow. Whereas adults can be so passionate about wanting..

[ Music: “Celtic Grooves,” from Production Music for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]

>> June: They’re taking their week off work, you see. It’s more, it’s very deliberate. They’re taking their week off. And they’re immersing themselves. And they’re trying to learn as much as they can. And they mightn’t be getting the time to do a weekly class.

>> Michael: Or maybe not making the progress they want to make, and then frustration can creep in.

>> June: Or they can be at the same point a year later, maybe. You know. 

>> Michael: But you know, that whole notion of slow session. That is very much a phenomenon now, I’d say.

>> Shannon: What do you think?

>> Michael: You know, if it’s put in context, if there is going to be a slow session, the reasons are that people are playing at a certain speed. And they’re not fit to play faster, but they want to play in a communal setting. And if the context is that, then fine. Otherwise sit back and listen. 

I mean, God, there was times I sat down in a session and I didn’t know one tune the whole night. I’d be sitting there feeling fairly uncomfortable and it can be fairly unforgiving as a youngster. And yet you’re learning and you’re learning, I mean, June and I would have spent a lot of our teenage years and early twenties, just taping sessions. You know? Tunes we didn’t know.

>> June: Soaking up tunes.

>> Michael: And just go and learning them in our own times of that and try and really looking forward to getting a chance to play them, um, in the next session. You know? And that was the great thing, we played a session the other night. Myself, yourself Shannon, and others. And just the tunes that were coming out of the woodwork. Oh my gosh, I haven’t heard that tune. And that triggers something else. And then someone comes in and plays a slow set, and that’s fine. But the context there was, this is not a slow session. This is just a session. 

I mean, we might go down to Sliabh Luachra in Kerry, or in Limerick. And you could be sitting in a session. And you know, you pride yourself on having a decent repertoire at this age. But you mightn’t know one of the tunes The trick there is not to feel uncomfortable about it, just to feel the opposite. Think this is great. And record away. We all went through those frustrations, you know. The music just didn’t fall out of our heads, like. We all had to sit down and graft and learn them. And we didn’t have the books. We didn’t have the slow down apps 

>> June: Or the internet. 

>> Michael: It was literally, you know, get on with it.

[Music: “Macalla Suite,” from Gradam Ceoil TG4 
Artist: National Folk Orchestra of Ireland, conducted by Michael Rooney ]

>> Shannon: One way to just get on with it is to write some music. Michael has composed a number of suites for trad and orchestral instruments, including the Famine Suite, the Reconciliation Suite. His Macalla Suite referenced historic events of the 1916 Easter Rising. Here he is conducting a group of Irish, Scottish, and English musicians. June’s sitting in with the flute section.

[ Music swells ]

This piece ends with a massive accelerando. Everybody’s speeding up to the finish. Just so you know, to pull this off with such a large group takes a bit of finesse.

[ Orchestral Suite ends ]

Teaching can take many forms.

[ Music: “Grupai Ceol Memories,” from Production Music for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]

 It can mean weekly, methodical group classes. It can mean sitting with a kid while he does his daily practice. It can mean conducting and rehearsing a team of experience and newer players to put together a massive Suite of music. Or it can mean digging into a few pieces in preparation for the Fleadh, the annual music competition run by Comhaltas

>> Shannon: So what about competitions?

>> Michael: So, competition. Um, that definitely improves the standards. We would have lot of musicians who would possibly not win a solo competition. But when you put them into a group, and you get them to work really hard as a team, they make massive strides throughout the year. Because they’re focusing on a competition that’s going to come up in the summertime.

So competitions are very good for that. But I also feel—and I feel very strongly about this in my job at school dealing with kids and how they cannot cope with not having success, and they don’t have many coping strategies for failing at something. So when you take part in a competition as a young child and you don’t win, that’s a great lesson in life. You know, you have to deal with that. You know, you haven’t achieved first place, and how do you deal with it? Yes, you might cry for a while. Yes, you might be angry. But it’s good life skills….

>> Shannon:That’s an interesting point about resilience. How competitions can help to breed a bit of resilience. That’s lovely!

>> June: Certainly I would think that competition certainly helps just to hone a craft, let’s say. So it gives, as Mikhael said, you know, the purpose. Yeah, a focus to have to work toward something.

[ Music: “Farewell To Erin, The Morning Star,” from Traditional Music On Fiddle, Banjo & Harp
Artist: Oisin Mac Diarmada, Brian Fitzgerald, Micheal O’Ruanaigh

>> Shannon: So whether it’s a competition, or an online session that you’re working for. Just working on these tunes, learning and playing them with care: it’s something to do. Something to be immersed in. It’s something to take the mind off of temporary struggles. It’s a way to connect with other people who enjoy this music. It’s fun.

Traditional music.. and the bigger community and the stories that surround it… this has brought me comfort and enjoyment for decades. And it’s particularly sustaining right now in 2020.

I talked to June and Michael before the pandemic. It was great to hear what fuels their teaching and their music.

Just a few weeks before our chat in Goderich, I met up with fiddle player Alasdair White when we were both in North Carolina. 

[ Music: “Capt Murdo Kennedy of Kyle, South Uist Golf Club” from An Clar Geal
Artist: Alasdair White ]

Alasdair told me about his very first teacher, Ian Dick.

>> Alasdair: I went to a fellow who was a peripatetic music teacher. You know, he went round the rural schools teaching music, just general music. And, um, he was great. You know, he was, he was quite intense, so he would really kind of push you and all that. And then my teacher left the islands, uh, to go and work in Qatar in the Gulf. So I don’t know if it was something I said, or what, but he left. 

[ Laughter ]

[ Music: “D Chimes,” from Production Music for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]

So I had to put together what I could from where I could. Some of that was from pipers. Some of that was from accordion players. Some of that was, you know, from piano players as well. Whoever around the place. And I was very lucky in that there were people around me at the time were very generous with their music and very generous with their experience and advice. We were lucky enough to, you know, have traditional music be a commonplace thing. And, you know, so I would have been at ceilidhs, I’d have been at dances, I would have heard it. So just kind of learned the music basically, um, of, of where I was from. Not necessarily how to do it most effectively on the fiddle. And then, um, when I was about 12 I went to, uh, the Ceolas Summer School in South Uist. 

[ Music: “Cairistiona Chaimbeul” from Back of Boisdale
Artist: Joe Peter MacLean ]

Joe Peter MacClean and Father Angus Morris. But there were quite a few other, uh, fiddle players from around, around the Highlands and islands, all kinds of swapping ideas and playing traditional music in a way on the fiddle that I hadn’t really heard very much before. Um, so that was a great eye opener. And the following summer I went back. And that really had a big lasting impression that really launched me into the world of taking this kind of music seriously.

>> Shannon: So here we are at a summer teaching camp.

>> Alasdair: Yes! I was, you know, very lucky to be in an area where the traditional music was kind of a habitual and social thing. I think that was really, really important. And that stayed with me til today. So it’s really nice coming back to something like that. And trying to put yourself back in the position of being the student. Of kind of going through that a little bit of discovery.

[ Music: “Quickstep & 9/8 Marches,” from James Duncan Mackenzie
Artist: James Duncan Mackenzie ]

>> Shannon: A teacher who keeps going back to his early learning place is kind of like a podcaster who gets to talk to a different collection of people each month, to build these Irish music stories. This podcast continues to be built by inspired people who keep taking me back to my essential insights about traditional music and who share new perspectives. My guests, and my interesting and generous listeners, you all fuel this project and get me learning new stuff every month.

Thank you, everybody for tuning in. And before Alasdair talks about how he designs his classes, here’s my son Nigel to thank this month’s sponsors

>> Nigel: Thank you to Finn Agenbroad, David Vaughan, Brian Benscoter, Susan Walsh, Rick Rubin, Randy Krajniak, Jon Duvick, Suezen Brown, John Ploch, Joel DeLashmit, Chris Murphy, and Joe Martin.

>> Shannon: So how do you teach at these camps?

>> Alasdair: It’s quite different teaching at something like this n the US, as opposed to teaching in Scotland. I think people are after different things. (Although you never really know what people are after. You’re always guessing and hoping, hahaha.)

In Scotland, people are already familiar with the music, and you know familiar with many of the concepts in the music. And they’re looking for repertoire. They’re looking for tunes. They’re looking for quite technical stuff about how to play these tunes. And so in Scotland, a lot of the time what you’re trying to do is break people out of a kind of very normal approach. And you’re trying to make people think a little bit bigger and a wee bit more broadly, um, about how to perform the kind of music they’re already familiar with on the fiddle. 

>> Shannon: So give me an example, in Scotland, you’re trying to get somebody from playing this tune that she maybe already knows, is familiar with, to think bigger. 

>> Alasdair: Right. Well, if you’re talking about, say, take a jig— ike a pipe jig like “Kenny Gilles of Portnalong”, for example.  It’s quite well known. It’s played on the pipes. And it’s also very melodic. And you want to bring the tune out.

[Sings a bit of the tune]

So it’s very, you know, it’s not like a big strident kind of thing. It’s quite a nice, you know, you’ve got this kind of little nice push and pull there. It’s got a nice wee kinda twiddly bit. It  feels quite vocal, you know. Things like that. So you actually have a point behind it, so you can communicate a bit more than just the melody

[ Music: “Kenny Gilles of Portnalong, from Scotland’s Big Session video
Artists: Lauren MacColl and Ewan MacPherson ]

So if teaching teaching trad fiddle in Scotland runs a bit differently than it does Stateside , I wondered how Alasdair would approach a jig like Kenny Gilles of Portnalong in, say, North Carolina.

>> Alasdair: Here, I’d probably be a little more, uh, prescriptive saying that, okay, here is a bowing system that we’re going to use to play this. I’m not saying you have to do this, this. But this is going to be very useful in communicating the sensibility behind it a tune like this.

>> Shannon: So you give people a blueprint to get them into the mindset.

>> Alasdair: Yes. Here. That, that is what I do. And maybe I’m completely wrong with tis. But I do get the sense there has to be a differing approach on either side of the Atlantic.

>> Shannon: Because of what’s going on outside the camp?

>> Alasdair: Yeah. I think it would be unfair for me to assume that people were already familiar with this kind of music before they stepped into whatever classroom. I think for a lot of people, a week like this is an opportunity to just devote time to whatever hobby they have. And I think that’s a wonderful thing. I don’t think we need to make virtuosos of everybody. I think we’re here to pass on advice. And structured lessons are very important. But also, you’re hanging around. You’re all in the same area. You’re all in the same spot. So coming up and asking your tutor about something is a very important part of the learning process to something like this. 

It’s hopefully something that will.. Well, I think that has as much of an impact, honestly, as kind of structured classes. The lessons for me can sometimes be a little, um, a little loose loose. The focus of the class—or the focus of the repertoire of the class changes. But I still feel as if I’m trying to communicate something in broader terms.

>> Shannon: Context?

>> Alasdair: Yeah, context. I think that’s really important. And I know that students coming into this, they all have their own agendas. And what they want to come out of this week with. And I completely respect that. But I also have what I want to communicate. And that’s always the tension between the teacher and the pupil. And there’s an element of people learn at their own pace, and they know what will be useful to them.But I also know what is important for them to understand about what I’m teaching them. And I think having a certain amount of openness with class time to talk about larger things, I think if you’ve any depth of knowledge about the music at all, I think that’s a really useful role you have at something like this. Just to blabber away and tell people everything you know about something. And that you think they will find interesting. 

I don’t want to be all precious about it. But at the same time, like, you know, I’ve spent quite a lot of my life on this. So if you don’t take that seriously, it’s a wee bit of a kick in the face. Like, oh, come on there’s people that care about this. And this is important stuff. And you know, it’s not, um , it’s not that important in the grand scheme of life. But neither is art; neither is culture, if you want to take it like that. Soo..

>> Shannon: it could be a simple way, to express something that is bigger than what it is. 

>> Alasdair: Yeah, I think so.  And that’s the, that’s the attraction of traditional music to me. It can be very, very immediate and it can be very, very personal. And it can be fully formed with, you know…. But in order for it to be fully formed, there has to be that depth there.

[ Music: “The Hairy Angler Fish…” from Room Enough for All
Artist: Battlefield Band ]

>> Shannon: Alasdair played with Scotland’s  Battlefield Band at the end of 2001. Over many line-ups, the group has embraced innovation and variety, while always emphasizing that traditional orientation. That depth.

>> Shannon: I mean, I think your crew has a pretty pithy mandate for that. What is it, um, ‘forward with Scotland’s past?’

>> Alasdair: Hahaha. I’ve always hated that. I think Mike once said it used to be ‘forward with Scotland’s pasta, but we sold a vowel. So that’s what we have now.

[ Laughter ]

>> Shannon: If you’ve ever heard the Battlefield Band, piper Mike Katz’s quip about forward with Scotland’s pasta might sum it up. It’s well travelled music that does put a big Scottish foot forward. But it embraces other sounds, and humor.

>> Alasdair: It’s fun and it’s danceable. And it’s you know, it’s just a wee tune. But there is art and craft behind it all. And I think that’s very important. So like coming up with a kind of very pithy little line like that, it’s still a way for people to hang their expectations on whatever was coming. And that is all part and parcel of being able to present traditional music in a way that people should take seriously, you know? 

And so, you know, I vacillate between being a wee bit cringey at it. And then also appreciating it for the, the, uh, the intention. 

>> Shannon: Accessibility. 

>> Alasdair: Yeah, and the accessibility too, yeah. 

[ Music:  “Triumph Theme,” from Production Music for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]

I do look at on it as, uh, you know, educating people about, you know, the culture and the music and things like that. I don’t assume that people are gonna go away and immediately plough the Scottish music furrow, and that will be their newfound passion. I don’t really think in those terms, you know? I want them to leave with a certain amount of understanding. And also for them to know that there’s some really interesting stuff there. Some really nice music. And to leave them open to that music and further experiences with Scottish music. Yeah!

>> Shannon: Bearing and sharing a tradition at a summer camp, or on a stage, or in a session, or in a Zoom room, or in a podcast. A living tradition only survives when it is passed on.

[ Music: “Hometown Lullaby” reprise ]

>> Caroline: I think the more people that are engaged and interested the better.

>> Shannon: That’s Limerick-born concertina player Caroline Keane. She and piper Tom Delany also had thoughts to about passing on tunes and ideas back in Goderich, Ontario.

>> Caroline: I think the more you can share your experiences with somebody, you inform their experiences. They’re not scrambling and trying to find facts, and making up their own information, and passing off false presumptions about… You know,  you’re not passing off a Paddy Whackery culture. 

>> Tom: We are lucky enough to be able to have had access to it. And I think it’s your responsibility as an Irish musician to pass it on. Like we’re really, really lucky. We have this thing which is way more important than our little lives as human beings. It’s your responsibility to pass it on. That’s just down to it. That’s your role. 

And I say to my students, I say look, you’re now vessels of Irish music. You’ve just learned two polkas that you didn’t know. You’ve learned them by ear. Your responsibility now is either to play them, or to acknowledge this music and to help it carrying on. Whether you stop playing the tin whistle tomorrow, I don’t care. But your responsibility now is to listen to CDs, to appreciate Irish music. By just coming to a festival like this, you’re facilitating the tradition!

[ Music: “John Kelly’s, Old Concertina Reel,” from Never Say Goodbye, Say Good Luck
Artists: Caroline Keane and Tom Delany ]

>> Shannon: We’re here at the Goderich Ontario Celtic Roots Festival. So did you grow up going to camps like these? Is that how you learned Irish music, Caroline?

>> Caroline: Uh, a little bit of everything for me, honestly. I went to music lessons. I had the luxury of having a weekly lesson when when I was learning. I went to Comhaltas classes. And a lot of that was kind of mixed instruments. There’d be a big hall, and catching up with your friends, and learning a couple of tunes. And I’d have gone to Willy Clancy week in Clare a good few times. And I think it was so much part and parcel of the house that I grew up in that I didn’t actually notice it. I think it was just, there was always music on in the background. My granny was always whistling and singing. And they were talking about different musicians that I didn’t even realize were musicians, if that makes any sense. And just the radio was on, or my granny’s whistling. It’s just part and parcel of it. It’d be different for Tom

>> Tom: Well, yeah. When I was learning, I learnt a lot at home from my dad. I learnt myself. But there was one event a year that I went to when I was younger. It was a Tionol, just a get together of Pipers. And there were some fiddle players, as well as flute players. And we’d be there for three days, four days. But, um, I was only 14 or 13. And everybody around me was 50, 60, 70. And I suppose it must’ve been really exciting for all the grownups—they were all learning as well. But to see a kid! There was no kids there. It was just me and my pipes and all these grownups around me learning. But it was fun. I used to love it, like, I used to love it. I’d be away for three days with lots of grownups. And stay up late, and play tunes, and learn tunes. And everybody was always very nice. It was very, very encouraging.

[ Music: Métro Blues,” from Never Say Goodbye, Say Good Luck
Artist/Composer: Tom Delany ]

[ Music: “Modal Groove,” from Production Music for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]

>> Shannon: How do you teach Irish music, with that background of yours, Caroline? 

>> Caroline: I suppose a lot of the time when you turn up to a workshop, the seed has already been planted. You know, people don’t sign up for a concertina workshop because they’ve just seen one in the local Spar. 

[ Laughter ]

>> Shannon: Now I have seen a lot of good stuff at the local Spar dealer. Though more like freshly baked apple tarts. Or back in the day we’d be so excited to see a can of pinto beans so we could make what we called “Irish nachos,” with hard taco shells, homemade salsa, and shredded Dubliner’s cheese. But I never saw concertinas for sale amid the roast chickens and cartons of juice.

[ Music: “John’s Theme,” from Production Music for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]

>> Caroline: I think teaching is a very personal thing. And I think it reflects your personality more than anything else. But I think there are so many different types of learners and so many different types of teachers, um, you really have to match a learner with a teacher. 

[ Music: “Chimes” reprise ]

And as a teacher, you have to try and be really, really, really clear and precise in everything you’re doing and give people as much of a template for what you’re doing as possible.

I cover everything from the very, very bottom up. And I think that if you create foundation, when you develop your musicality—instead of shooting straight up and doing everything as fast as possible (I don’t mean in tempo). But I think if you, if you just go, this is the tune, learn it quick, I think that’s a less kind of well-rounded, um, approach than going okay, separating everything out and very, very, very slowly attacking all of these different little things. Attacking is the wrong word. Um, approaching all these different little things. The tortoise and the hare. You’re the tortoise and it’s eventually that that foundation will just bring you up to having great rhythm, having great technique. Stuff like that. 

[ Music: Mutey Big Build reprise ]

I set the foundation and I teach, I teach ‘this is the physicality of playing your instrument.’ So it’s kind of intrinsic in my teaching that they’re picking up a rhythm, they’re picking up whatever, because it’s so intuitive. And the only way you do that is by building those blocks up from the very, very bottom. That’s for me.

>> Tom: I think, um, a lot of people fall in love with Irish music for a number of reasons. But sometimes I find that they’ve skipped over the basics of it. And the more I teach abroad now, the more I actually kind of try to ensure that the people have a very good understanding of what they’re listening to, and what they’re listening for, in order to get better and to improve. Because in Ireland, when I see kids or when I teach, when you’re talking to people, because the music is so part of daily life, of culture,  or people are learning music since they’re kids, there’s stuff that hasn’t been explained and does need to be explained. Like to say that a reel may have two parts or three parts. That it’s repeated. All these things come probably very naturally to an Irish person who has been learning Irish music since they were a kid. But I found over the years that when you go abroad, a lot of people have actually never heard of that. Nobody’s told them. They just said, I love the tin whistle, or I love the fiddle. I want to learn. 

[ Music: “Mickey Callaghan’s Slide/Winnie Hayes’s Jig,” from Kitty Lie Over
Artists: Mick O’Brien & Caoimhín Ó Raghallaigh ]

And they go to lessons. And they’re doing workshops once a year. And they’re listening to CDs. But they haven’t a clue what they’re listening to, what they’re listening for. And it was here in Goodrich a few years ago that that kind of landed on me. I was teaching whistle whistle and realized that the people I was teaching had no idea what I was talking about. They didn’t know that the tune I was teaching had two parts. They didn’t know that it had to be repeated. And I was like, how long have you guys been coming to this festival or listening to Irish music? And most of them were like 10 years, 15 years. How can you enjoy what you’re listening to iIf you don’t? And they’re like, Oh, well, it’s still beautiful. But you don’t go watch a game of soccer if you don’t know the rules, you know? 

Haha

Well some people obviously do. But really I make a point of what we’re aiming for, and the basic, basic rules of Irish music. 

>> Shannon: Basic rules. Like, if they don’t have words, they’re called tunes, not songs. Like, this is a social tradition, and it’s good to introduce yourself and listen for a while, before just barging into a session. And like the fact that jigs go dai-dl-dee dai-dle-dee, dai-dle-dee dah. And polkas go

> Tom:  n- dot, n-dot, n-dot ,  duh-duh-duh… I play them tunes and then, you know, you tell me what it is. What did I just play? Was it a reel, was it a hornpipe. And at the start they’re completely mesmerized. I have no idea. I’m like, well, you’re going to have to figure that one out if you want to learn the tune. So I make sure that that’s covered. That’s my thing, Most of the time, it doesn’t take very long for them to understand. And then we can approach the rest — the repertoire, or whatever suits their standard or their level, you know? Um, but I take particular pride in that. I really like doing that. Because I can really relate to that situation of being away from the culture and having to work it out yourself, you know? So I try and try and make sure that that’s covered.

>> Shannon: Nice. So you start with a broad picture. You’re like a tour guide? And that is obviously coming from where you are coming from. 

>> Tom: Yeah

>> Shannon: You talk about your upbringing, Caroline. So partnering up with Tom: has that opened your worldview to, um, the experience of other people who maybe don’t grow up in your environment?

[ Music:  “Slip Jig Dreams,” from Production Music for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]

>> Caroline: Absolutely. But everybody you meet gives you a new turn on it. And as I say, it gives you a new way of, um, teaching something. Or it gives you a new way of looking at something. It’s like travel, you know. Everybody you meet, every culture you meet informs the way you look at the world, informs the way you think about your art. It informs the way that you show somebody else how to do your art. It’s just a cultural thing. And yes, we have totally different upbringings. But it’s kind of a crossover. Tom grew up in a very, very music conscious family, just outside of Ireland. Whereas I grew up in what I would consider a not particularly musical conscious family. But inside Ireland. So it’s…

>> Shannon: And of course within Ireland, there are many people who don’t know anything about Irish traditional music. So that’s always a little bit of an eye opener for those of us coming from the outside.

>> Caroline: You do notice that. But I was playing in a sports bar for a festival in Dingle, when I first moved down. And myself and another musician from Dublin went in. And we sat down and played our gig. And this bar, now, had never had any music in it before. And the people weren’t interested in anything other than horse racing. And they were there. And they just happened to be music in the corner, because it was a trad festival And nobody was there for the music. And we just sat down and we played reels all night, because, I don’t know, the person was from Dublin and I was from Limerick. And we just came across common tunes. And about an hour and a half in, after playing reels and a couple of jigs, we said, “oh, would we play these polkas?”

[ Music: “The Murroe Polka / The Taur Polka / Mick Duggan’s Polka, from Shine
Artist: Caroline Keane ]

And, like, the Southwest of Ireland is kind of polka and slide territory. But we presumed because we were in a sports bar, it didn’t matter really what we played. Because we didn’t think anyone was listening anyway. We were just in the corner, um, playing for ourselves. And as soon as we played a set of polkas, the entire bar—and I mean people who to the eye had never, ever heard traditional music in the lives and didn’t care if they ever did again—turned around and just wooooooo! And it just showed me how much part and parcel of the culture it is. And in certain areas, even if people would tell you, “I know nothing about trad music,: they know what rhythms they’re listening to. And what dancers they’re used to having in their immediate environment. 

>> Shannon: So I suppose people in Sliabh Luachra (in the Southwest of Ireland) “just know” about traditional music, because they do hear it around: at weddings, or in bars (or they did back when everything was open). And throughout Ireland people are around traditional music a lot. It’s on the bus sometimes. Or at a pub — recorded, or live like at Irish music sessions. As many Irish Music Stories listener know, these social, informal music meetups, even if they are arranged and hired by a pub, still involve spontaneity and conversational music-making. They aren’t staged, scripted performances. They’re social touchstones for the participants. And that involves the players, the dancers, and the punters (the listeners, the people standing around in the pub enjoying conversation, but also sort of weaving into the fabric of the music, just by being there.)

>> Tom: The session is probably one of the most attractive aspects of playing Irish music for a lot of people. Especially people who live abroad. Again, I’m kind of saying that as the point of view of the foreigner. Because everybody wants to be part of that session. But they don’t necessarily understand what it entails or what the etiquette is.  

[ Music: Slip Jig Dreams reprise ]

>> Shannon: how do you teach your students to participate in sessions?

>> Caroline: Go to as many as you can. And follow what the other guy beside you is doing. You know, don’t arrive in with this “Look what I can do” attitude. Arrive at a session the same as you would at a table full of people having a conversation about something you’re very interested in. You go in, you say hello, I really enjoy such a thing as well. People forget that music is actually a social interaction. If don’t have immediate access to music all of the time, you kind of forget that it’s really just a musical conversation with somebody. So you just go and, and try and share some music, and be interested in what they have to share.

>> Tom: I try and explain, or I often compare it to a game of a game of soccer or a game of tennis. You don’t happen to walk past the stadium and see a bunch of people playing football and just go “Give me the ball! Give me the ball! Give me the ball!”

>> Caroline: But I brought my own ball

>> Tom: “Come on, let’s go! I can play, too!” No, you don’t. Nobody does that. And there’s also the idea that there’s much more to the session done than your personal performance. Most of the session is the listening aspect. It’s who you’re playing with. And learning how to listen to the people around the table. And having this kind of your radar on full blast. And scoping exactly what’s happening around you to be able to participate. And a lot of people don’t know how to do that, especially if they’re learning from abroad. Because they don’t have the opportunity to do it very often.

[ Music:  “Abbey Reel,” from Kitchen Session
Artist: Matt Heaton ]

And then they come to maybe a festival like this. And there’s musicians everywhere. And they’ve been practicing all year. And they’re eager beavers. But nobody has told them that they have to listen to the guy next to them. They just presumed that if they knew the tune and he knows the tune, one, two, three, four, let’s play, let’s play together. And it’s absolutely not the case. 

>> Caroline: But it’s a social thing. And listen. And listen: if you enjoy the music anytime there is a session anywhere in your vicinity, or the next time there’s some kind of festival, you’re going to be gagging to go. You’re going to be running out the door to..  You’re going to be excited that there are gonna be other people there to play with. It’s..

>> Shannon: That hunger?

>> Tom: Yeah.

>> Caroline: Play as often as you can!

>> Tom: Yeah. But don’t forget. You don’t arrive somewhere you don’t know anybody, and just plant yourself in the middle and expect people to play with you. Like, encouragement is amazing.

>> Caroline: Absolutely, yeah.

>> Tom: It’s really, really, really important. And we wouldn’t be where we are if it wasn’t for the people who’ve been good enough to back us up when we were learning.

>> Shannon: Indeed.

[ Music: Pound the Floor reprise ]

>> Tom: But encouragement doesn’t mean that we were always allowed to play. Or we were always told that we were always welcomed to play. I’m not saying the encouragement is open the door, come sit down here and play with me. It means maybe you should stand at the bar for this session and just listen. Or maybe you should record. Or maybe you should play later. Or maybe..

>> Caroline: I don’t think I’ve could ever say that to someone..

>> Tom: But you know, that’s, that’s encouragement. It doesn’t need, um, you tell your kids not to play with knives!

>> Shannon: hahaha!

>> Tom: It doesn’t mean that they’re not allowed to ever have a knife. Or they will never be able to use one. Just think, like, you’re five years old. Don’t play with knives. Not now anyway. I think it’s important for people to understand that, because sometimes you have to…

[ Music:  “Little Bird Lullaby,” from Production Music for Irish Music Stories
Artist/Composer: Matt Heaton ]

 A friend of mine told me not too long ago, I thought it was a very interesting point of view, that he never joins a session unless he thinks he can add something to that session. And I thought that was very, very wise words, you know? 

>> Shannon: And that takes listening before you leap.

>> Tom: Absolutely. I’ve had some of the best nights of my life listening to other people play. God, if you like that music, why do you like that music? It’s because you listen to it. Because you love listening to it. Playing is only a secondary thing, I think. 

>> Shannon: So how do you learn Irish music? What’s the best way to teach it? June McCormack and Michael Rooney, Alasdair White, Caroline Keane and Tom Delany: my chat with each other them centered around listening. And teaching people tunes directly. Deliberately. Carefully. By listening.

[ Music: “Reavy’s – The Milliner’s Daughter,” from Traditional Music On Fiddle, Banjo & Harp
Composer: Ed Reavy
Artists: Oisin Mac Diarmada, Brian Fitzgerald, Micheal O’Ruanaigh ]

There’s no book that can show you what it sounds like. You gotta listen. And that at some point you gotta just try to play what you heard. Listen some more, and try again.

And that’s probably about how it works for all teachers and students. Some are more organized. Some hone in on strategies that work reliably. But at the end of the day, teachers and students, we’re all just really making it up. We’re making up an approach. And hopefully always adjusting.

>> Alasdair: You know, the older you get and the more things you do in your life, you realize that nobody has a clue what they’re doing. And everyone’s kind of making it up, you know. You think somehow that … Like I deal with a letting agent back home. I still have an apartment back home. So, the guy who’s looking after it back home in Edinburgh, you know, he’s very good. But I’ve talked to him a few times. And he’s kind of as clueless as me about certain aspects of how to maintain an apartment. And you know, some things I’m clueless about, some things I’m not. But everyone’s just kinda making it up. And that’s his job. And this is my job. So, that’s what happens. Yeah! hahah.

>> Shannon: If we’re all just making it up, it’s probably best to seek the company and support from competent practitioners who are game to learn and adjust. To choose teachers—and to elect leaders—who try, adjust, and try again. 

And with that, it’ll still be an okay day with a few missed notes. And it’ll still be okay if the local Spar store is out of apple tarts or pinto beans.

[ Music: “The North Star,” (in the Ballybrolly set), from Rubai
Composer: Brian Finnegan
Artist: Flook ]

Irish Music Stories was produced by me, Shannon Heaton. Thank you to Matt Heaton for the production music. To Nigel for acknowledging this month’s supporters. Thank you to Sally Tucker for the transcriptions. To Ryne Van Horne for helping me source music this month. A big thank you to this month’s guests. And thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this show. If you can kick in, just head to IrishMusicStories.org . And thank you.

[ Music Chimes ]

Thanks a lot for tuning in. And hope you’ll come back here next month for more Irish music stories.

[Outtake: ]

>> Shannon: So with ample, balanced holistic encouragement, maybe someday there will be a concertina in every local spar dealer. 

>> Caroline: Right. I’ll have a chicken roll and a concertina, please!